Wednesday, April 12, 2006
No reservation at IIT & IIM
I hope that we all understand the need to respond to this recent irresponsible decision from some bearcats about the Quota Raj with 49.5 per cent reservation of the total seats in IITs, IIMs and Central universities, including Delhi University, for OBCs, SCs and STs. It is obvious that this policy will undesirably dilute the competent environment in an effort to reduce the disparity between the elite technical institutes & other universities.
I am confident that you are aware of the articles that have been all over the media about the recent uproar on this issue. Some links that you may refer to are - 'Mandal Redux' & 'Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster'. It was also mentioned in the recent IITBHF & IITBAA Newsletter.
I totally understand the disparity and insist that we need to provide the under privileged the assistance but am not in favor of an reservation based admission. The government may as well provide free primary education but reservations at the university level are detrimental and shall result in damage beyond repair. This will be worse that changing the JEE pattern and renaming a couple of universities to IIT. It is indeed sad that when we all see the undesirable effects of such decisions how can the policy makers turn a blind eye and use it for political mileage.
I hope you all might have already signed the petition and you may send mails to the concerned government offices.
Govt. of India Contact Information
When the pro-reservation person claims to be aware that "quality primary education is a distant dream for the lower castes", why do they still insist upon allowing the same not-so-technically-competent people to graduate out of those prestigious universities?
Rather than giving examples that relate to the present condition he fancies to use the age-old debate of Brahmin's vs. lower castes and suppression over the years. It would be more appropriate, IMHO, that this is almost like saying that lets amass all the wealth from the top industrialists and distribute it among the underprivileged people. It would be rather more logical to provide them the right opportunity and help them grow into competent and challenging individuals. So it is my understanding that providing them primary education is the best we can do.
If this is bill is approved, it is not worth arguing whether an illiterate person should later be made a professor at these institutes based on the same reservation rather than based on his qualification.
NOTE: I sincerely urge everyone to use the technology to our advantage, refrain from moving to the streets and rather sign petitions, send emails and mails to the President's & PM's Office and also the HRD Ministry. If you have any contacts in the media bombard them with protest mails. :)
I am confident that you are aware of the articles that have been all over the media about the recent uproar on this issue. Some links that you may refer to are - 'Mandal Redux' & 'Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster'. It was also mentioned in the recent IITBHF & IITBAA Newsletter.
I totally understand the disparity and insist that we need to provide the under privileged the assistance but am not in favor of an reservation based admission. The government may as well provide free primary education but reservations at the university level are detrimental and shall result in damage beyond repair. This will be worse that changing the JEE pattern and renaming a couple of universities to IIT. It is indeed sad that when we all see the undesirable effects of such decisions how can the policy makers turn a blind eye and use it for political mileage.
I hope you all might have already signed the petition and you may send mails to the concerned government offices.
Govt. of India Contact Information
- Google News search for news about reservations policy ...
- President of India
Rashtrapati Bhavan, New Delhi - 110 004
EPABX : 91-11-23015321, Fax : 91-11-23017290 & 91-11-23017824
Website : http://presidentofindia.nic.in
E-mail : presidentofindia@rb.nic.in - Prime Minister's Office (PMO)
South Block, Raisina Hill, New Delhi, India-110 011
Telephone: 91-11-23012312. Fax: 91-11-23019545 & 91-11-23016857
Website: http://pmindia.nic.in/
E-mail: pmosb@pmo.nic.in - HRD Ministry:
Website: http://www.education.nic.in/Secondary/secondary.asp
E-mail: webmaster.edu@nic.in
When the pro-reservation person claims to be aware that "quality primary education is a distant dream for the lower castes", why do they still insist upon allowing the same not-so-technically-competent people to graduate out of those prestigious universities?
Rather than giving examples that relate to the present condition he fancies to use the age-old debate of Brahmin's vs. lower castes and suppression over the years. It would be more appropriate, IMHO, that this is almost like saying that lets amass all the wealth from the top industrialists and distribute it among the underprivileged people. It would be rather more logical to provide them the right opportunity and help them grow into competent and challenging individuals. So it is my understanding that providing them primary education is the best we can do.
If this is bill is approved, it is not worth arguing whether an illiterate person should later be made a professor at these institutes based on the same reservation rather than based on his qualification.
NOTE: I sincerely urge everyone to use the technology to our advantage, refrain from moving to the streets and rather sign petitions, send emails and mails to the President's & PM's Office and also the HRD Ministry. If you have any contacts in the media bombard them with protest mails. :)
Comments:
<< Home
I have attached my mail to webmaster.edu@nic.in, pmosb@pmo.nic.in & presidentofindia@rb.nic.in for your reference and anticipate you to sign the petition and send mails to the above mentioned addresses.
Dear Dr. A. P. J. Kalam, Dr. Manmohan Singh,
A person would be confident only when he achieves a reward on the basis of merit. Reservation on any ground will deteriorate the standard and will be responsible for increase brain drain after we saw the slow drift towards reversing the brain drain process. Everyone should be given equal opportunity to perform no matter which caste or religion he belongs. Don’t let the politicians mess with the future of the nation anymore. We have suffered enough in the past more than 50 years of freedom. You may provide free elementary education so that everyone has the opportunity to pass high school and do not remain illiterate. Merit based entrance makes more sense to maintain the standards of education at the premier institutions. This reservation policy will only dilute the skilled graduates that we are used to see graduate from these world-renowned institutes. Being highly educated & having been in the education field for such a long time, I anticipate that the Prime Minister & President of India shall make a responsible decision for the betterment of the nation.
Kindly refer to the petition online at http://www.petitiononline.com/No_Quota/petition.html
Sincerely
Hemal Modi.
Dear Dr. A. P. J. Kalam, Dr. Manmohan Singh,
A person would be confident only when he achieves a reward on the basis of merit. Reservation on any ground will deteriorate the standard and will be responsible for increase brain drain after we saw the slow drift towards reversing the brain drain process. Everyone should be given equal opportunity to perform no matter which caste or religion he belongs. Don’t let the politicians mess with the future of the nation anymore. We have suffered enough in the past more than 50 years of freedom. You may provide free elementary education so that everyone has the opportunity to pass high school and do not remain illiterate. Merit based entrance makes more sense to maintain the standards of education at the premier institutions. This reservation policy will only dilute the skilled graduates that we are used to see graduate from these world-renowned institutes. Being highly educated & having been in the education field for such a long time, I anticipate that the Prime Minister & President of India shall make a responsible decision for the betterment of the nation.
Kindly refer to the petition online at http://www.petitiononline.com/No_Quota/petition.html
Sincerely
Hemal Modi.
Nice comment.
You may also read the posts by vikas, Balaji, Abinandanan, Chiranjeevi, dhoomketu, Ashok, Paurna, Falstaff & a comic one.
You may also read the posts by vikas, Balaji, Abinandanan, Chiranjeevi, dhoomketu, Ashok, Paurna, Falstaff & a comic one.
We must investigate the term "merit".Is "merit" just a score in entrance exams at age of 17?
Take the claim of "merit based" entrance to all IIMs and dozens of other institutes.
The CAT exam is based on the SAT exam in the USA . It has been proved beyond doubt that the SAT test is culturally biased . Blacks and hispanics do poorly at it year after year .
If a student who is eligible for admission to IIM on the basis of his CAT score, were to take the same CAT exam in which he/she cleared in a language that he/she did not understand then he/she would be at a disadvantage compared to someone who was schooled in that language . Not knowing that language does not mean you lack the capacity to clear that exam.
Approximately 25 % of CAT test is about English! Another 25 % is about English Comprehension!!!! There you are !!!! About 50 % so called aptitude test is a hoax for someone who is from a non-english speaking background .
This is how the CAT like the SAT is discriminatory .
See the full form of SAT …Scholastic Aptitude Test . The problem is aptitude testing is not so simple . There is no test on earth which can reliably tests aptitude .
Aptitude tests such as the SAT have a historical tie to the concept of innate mental abilities and the belief that such abilities can be defined and meaningfully measured. Neither notion has been supported by modern research. Few scientists who have considered these matters seriously would argue that aptitude tests such as the SAT provide a true measure of intellectual abilities.
It was found that people could be coached to better their scores at SAT . The name SAT …Scholastic Aptitude Test could not be correct . So under such valid criticism the name was changed to Scholastic Assessment Test, since a test that can be coached clearly did not measure inherent "scholastic aptitude", but was influenced largely by what the test subject had learned in school. Even the College Board which conducts the SAT has beaten a hasty retreat.This was a major theoretical retreat by the College Board conducting SAT, which had previously maintained that the test measured inherent aptitude and was free of bias.
About ten years back , however, even the redundancy of the term assessment test was recognized and the name was changed to the neutral, and non-descriptive, SAT. At the time, the College Board announced, "Please note that SAT is not an initialism. It does not stand for anything."
The framers of these SAT tests assumed that intelligence was a unitary inherited attribute, that it was not subject to change over a lifetime, and that it could be measured and individuals could be ranked and assigned their place in society accordingly. The SAT evolved from these questionable assumptions about human talent and potential.
More and more people are questioning the validity of SAT . In the past MENSA used to accept high SAT score individuals . For the past decade it has stopped accepting SAT scores .
The whole exercise of deciding merit based on CAT scores discriminates against those from lower socio-economic status.
Though many non-IIM institutes have started accepting CAT scores, the application fee of these institutes is still inexplicably high.
The CAT is primarily an exam of Math and English. Logical and Analytical Reasoning is nearly absent (except for some verbal reasoning which again depends on knowing English well!!!!).
CAT is a clever way to keep those from lower socio-economic strata away Institutes funded with tax payers money .
So claims of “Merit” based on CAT scores is hollow and discriminatory against those of lower socio-economic strata.
Dhirubhai Ambani had a poor command over English . He would not have made it through CAT. So what "merit" are we talking of?
Take the claim of "merit based" entrance to all IIMs and dozens of other institutes.
The CAT exam is based on the SAT exam in the USA . It has been proved beyond doubt that the SAT test is culturally biased . Blacks and hispanics do poorly at it year after year .
If a student who is eligible for admission to IIM on the basis of his CAT score, were to take the same CAT exam in which he/she cleared in a language that he/she did not understand then he/she would be at a disadvantage compared to someone who was schooled in that language . Not knowing that language does not mean you lack the capacity to clear that exam.
Approximately 25 % of CAT test is about English! Another 25 % is about English Comprehension!!!! There you are !!!! About 50 % so called aptitude test is a hoax for someone who is from a non-english speaking background .
This is how the CAT like the SAT is discriminatory .
See the full form of SAT …Scholastic Aptitude Test . The problem is aptitude testing is not so simple . There is no test on earth which can reliably tests aptitude .
Aptitude tests such as the SAT have a historical tie to the concept of innate mental abilities and the belief that such abilities can be defined and meaningfully measured. Neither notion has been supported by modern research. Few scientists who have considered these matters seriously would argue that aptitude tests such as the SAT provide a true measure of intellectual abilities.
It was found that people could be coached to better their scores at SAT . The name SAT …Scholastic Aptitude Test could not be correct . So under such valid criticism the name was changed to Scholastic Assessment Test, since a test that can be coached clearly did not measure inherent "scholastic aptitude", but was influenced largely by what the test subject had learned in school. Even the College Board which conducts the SAT has beaten a hasty retreat.This was a major theoretical retreat by the College Board conducting SAT, which had previously maintained that the test measured inherent aptitude and was free of bias.
About ten years back , however, even the redundancy of the term assessment test was recognized and the name was changed to the neutral, and non-descriptive, SAT. At the time, the College Board announced, "Please note that SAT is not an initialism. It does not stand for anything."
The framers of these SAT tests assumed that intelligence was a unitary inherited attribute, that it was not subject to change over a lifetime, and that it could be measured and individuals could be ranked and assigned their place in society accordingly. The SAT evolved from these questionable assumptions about human talent and potential.
More and more people are questioning the validity of SAT . In the past MENSA used to accept high SAT score individuals . For the past decade it has stopped accepting SAT scores .
The whole exercise of deciding merit based on CAT scores discriminates against those from lower socio-economic status.
Though many non-IIM institutes have started accepting CAT scores, the application fee of these institutes is still inexplicably high.
The CAT is primarily an exam of Math and English. Logical and Analytical Reasoning is nearly absent (except for some verbal reasoning which again depends on knowing English well!!!!).
CAT is a clever way to keep those from lower socio-economic strata away Institutes funded with tax payers money .
So claims of “Merit” based on CAT scores is hollow and discriminatory against those of lower socio-economic strata.
Dhirubhai Ambani had a poor command over English . He would not have made it through CAT. So what "merit" are we talking of?
# posted by 
: 4/28/2006 1:44 AM
: 4/28/2006 1:44 AM
If you wish to investigate, I strongly suggest you investigate two facts –
1. Why can't an entrance exam be a representation of aptitude? The age is not the factor, unless you wish to join the university at the age of 50. All it needs is a proper understanding of basic fundamentals. You would know what I mean if you ever manage to give JEE.
2. Why you felt the need to write it anonymous?
I shall concentrate on the first one and leave the second one for you to ponder over.
The JEE/CAT questions may appear brutal to some, but did you ever imagine it from the point of the institute that has limited seats and shall prefer to take its pick from a groups of students that is at least 100 times the capacity of the institute. For others, of course it is not the end of the world. I have seen people from other universities prove their worth after their graduation. Graduation from a credited university is just the beginning. Unless you prove your worth, no company will be willing to have you and shall not wait or think before it fires you.
Stop your comparison with SAT. Even the American counterpart that does well in SAT may not be on par with the teens who did great in our competitive exams. Though, if you care to notice, you might realize that at least JEE has started moving more towards a 12th class standard. I took JEE in 1999 and when I notice the current JEE questions, they appear more like the tougher practice problems and barely anywhere closer to the JEE pattern that I was exposed to.
I believe that JEE rank is not an absolute measure of intelligence, but anyone who has cleared JEE has invariably shown that he is above the threshold level of intelligence that is anticipated of the students who join IIT. I believe that specialized knowledge is necessary to help you survive the pace at which the subjects are taught in some courses at these technical institutes, as the professors are considerate enough to teach at a pace that shall help the slowest learner in the class to assimilate the theories being taught.
Further, people who cleared JEE are indisputably smart and those who do not clear JEE are not stupid. So if you believe that we have more talent than what these limited premier institutes can train, then build stronger second tier of institutes, say NITs or RECs.
It is the same supply-demand ratio that governs inside IITs – as the ranking influences choices and branch placements. But we don't crib about it a whole lot and try to niche a place for ourselves in the respective discipline. Some even say, the discipline you get or in essence the performance in JEE, is based on karma :).
If a student has problems with his English and uses that as an excuse for poor performance in CAT or other exams, after about 15 years of schooling, then he better spend some time learning English as he might be forced to rely heavily on his English after his graduation in this harsh corporate world.
Also did you know that passing CAT is just a miniscule part of the process to get into IIMs. It is just a filtering process and is followed by more rigorous GD & personal interviews. High score in CAT and recklessness in GD or personal interview shall result in your rejection from the IIMs.
If the companies that hire these graduates and believes that it is the best it can hire, then it does make a statement on the effectiveness of these entrance tests and the institutes should have the right to select the students based on such tougher exams with the competition or the sheer number of people taking this exam is so high. Did one ever question why the American universities reject some application without any reason? They do it to ensure the variety of students it needs to maintain the standard of students that graduate from its universities.
So if you still feel that the claims of "Merit" based on such entrance test scores is hollow and discriminatory against those of lower socio-economic strata, just let the government spend some time and money in some other university and bring it to the reputed institute standards and reserve it perennially for the socio-economic strata.
As you mentioned Dhirubhai Ambani, did you ever reckon that he never had to rely on such university degrees to start an empire, then why is everyone so inclined to get into these institutes by by-passing the so called qualifying entrance examinations?
1. Why can't an entrance exam be a representation of aptitude? The age is not the factor, unless you wish to join the university at the age of 50. All it needs is a proper understanding of basic fundamentals. You would know what I mean if you ever manage to give JEE.
2. Why you felt the need to write it anonymous?
I shall concentrate on the first one and leave the second one for you to ponder over.
The JEE/CAT questions may appear brutal to some, but did you ever imagine it from the point of the institute that has limited seats and shall prefer to take its pick from a groups of students that is at least 100 times the capacity of the institute. For others, of course it is not the end of the world. I have seen people from other universities prove their worth after their graduation. Graduation from a credited university is just the beginning. Unless you prove your worth, no company will be willing to have you and shall not wait or think before it fires you.
Stop your comparison with SAT. Even the American counterpart that does well in SAT may not be on par with the teens who did great in our competitive exams. Though, if you care to notice, you might realize that at least JEE has started moving more towards a 12th class standard. I took JEE in 1999 and when I notice the current JEE questions, they appear more like the tougher practice problems and barely anywhere closer to the JEE pattern that I was exposed to.
I believe that JEE rank is not an absolute measure of intelligence, but anyone who has cleared JEE has invariably shown that he is above the threshold level of intelligence that is anticipated of the students who join IIT. I believe that specialized knowledge is necessary to help you survive the pace at which the subjects are taught in some courses at these technical institutes, as the professors are considerate enough to teach at a pace that shall help the slowest learner in the class to assimilate the theories being taught.
Further, people who cleared JEE are indisputably smart and those who do not clear JEE are not stupid. So if you believe that we have more talent than what these limited premier institutes can train, then build stronger second tier of institutes, say NITs or RECs.
It is the same supply-demand ratio that governs inside IITs – as the ranking influences choices and branch placements. But we don't crib about it a whole lot and try to niche a place for ourselves in the respective discipline. Some even say, the discipline you get or in essence the performance in JEE, is based on karma :).
If a student has problems with his English and uses that as an excuse for poor performance in CAT or other exams, after about 15 years of schooling, then he better spend some time learning English as he might be forced to rely heavily on his English after his graduation in this harsh corporate world.
Also did you know that passing CAT is just a miniscule part of the process to get into IIMs. It is just a filtering process and is followed by more rigorous GD & personal interviews. High score in CAT and recklessness in GD or personal interview shall result in your rejection from the IIMs.
If the companies that hire these graduates and believes that it is the best it can hire, then it does make a statement on the effectiveness of these entrance tests and the institutes should have the right to select the students based on such tougher exams with the competition or the sheer number of people taking this exam is so high. Did one ever question why the American universities reject some application without any reason? They do it to ensure the variety of students it needs to maintain the standard of students that graduate from its universities.
So if you still feel that the claims of "Merit" based on such entrance test scores is hollow and discriminatory against those of lower socio-economic strata, just let the government spend some time and money in some other university and bring it to the reputed institute standards and reserve it perennially for the socio-economic strata.
As you mentioned Dhirubhai Ambani, did you ever reckon that he never had to rely on such university degrees to start an empire, then why is everyone so inclined to get into these institutes by by-passing the so called qualifying entrance examinations?
My main point was that inherent aptitude/talent (INBORN MERIT) can't be tested. What gets tested in a test like the CAT or SAT or any test is the person's learning (ACQUIRED MERIT).
I am not saying this learning(ACQUIRED MERIT) is a bad thing and those who possess it needs to penalized by denying them an opportunity for furthering their education .I am saying lets stop pretending that we are measuring inherit aptitude/talent(INBORN MERIT) in these entrance examinations .
Once we accept that what we are measuring in CAT or the other entrance exams is something that has been learnt with effort often since childhood we also see that others who have not had the good fortune of such a childhood could also learn those very things if only with harder work in teens or adulthood . And a person who has learnt skills late in his life can be as competent as anyone. So some one with a lesser score in an Entrance exam like a quota student could outdo over time someone who has scored more in the entrance .
. In a rediff discussion titled "Why students must know English " Rashmi Bansal of IIM Ahmedabad ,popular blogger , editor of an English youth magazine says ,
"All students must learn English because it is a vital skill in the New Economy"
But even the Americans don't think its going to enough in the "new economy" .
American President Bush thinks that learning Hindi and a few other foreign languages is a "critical need" for the US's national security and prosperity. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1362386.cms
In this article http://www.cmomagazine.com/analyst/031805_csa.html
That article quotes Former German chancellor Willy Brandt who said decades ago: "If I am selling to you, I speak your language. If I am buying, dann müssen Sie Deutsch sprechen" (or "Wenn ich zu Ihnen verkaufe, spreche ich Ihre Sprache. Wenn ich kaufe, then you must speak German"). People are much more likely to buy if they fully understand what it is you're trying to sell to them.
All successful business, like politics, is local - or should appear that way to the buyer. The right language is the first step in becoming a local hero says the same article
If knowledge of International language is the reason why CAT is held in English then there are other International languages which also have a claim to be in the question paper. See how knowing Chinese or Japanese or Italian or French or German would be to an Indian business man. Just look at the size of the world trade of the countries I have just named . And also see the growing importance of Asian countries .
Lets raise the standard of the Entrance exam . Let do away with the English paper and bring in a multilingual language paper. Lets introduce other important foreign languages in the CAT examination . To gain a competitive edge it will introduce the genial joys of learning a foreign language to the members of the anglicized cosmopolitan community. Lets say the first ten most widely spoken language in the world be included as options in the entrance examination .
Quite a few Indian languages will figure in the examination questions on the basis if the sheer number size of their speakers . ( Bengali follows Hindi in sheer numbers, its spoken in Bangladesh as well Bengal ) But lets consider all India state based languages equally . It will drastically cut down but not eliminate the importance of English . A person who knows more than one language will get rewarded.
If the answers are standardized then correction could also be easier .
It may also inspire our professors to learn newer international languages so that the immense research material in say Japanese management or French management becomes available to our budding management wizards . When our professors struggle with the Chinese script it will help them empathize with the struggle of a student who is struggling with English .
Lets further raise the standards of the entrance examination !!!Along with Maths lets also have a paper on Humanities . After all 90% of a managers success depends on handling people. So instead of promoting anglicized number crunching geeks who are blind to local and global social realities lets promote a more socially aware manager . Most corporates nowadays have larger social aims in their mission statements . They will love students who are conscious of social realities within and without the country .Let there be a compulsory section on "Community", "social capital". You can't understand concepts of "Caste", "social justice" etc .
It will bring down the ridiculous percentiles because the standards of the entrance would have gone up .
What I have suggested is complicated and I am sure can be improved upon . But where there is a will for merit and fair play there will be a way for merit and fair play .
Both can coexists . But then Innovation should not be just a management buzz word !!
I am not saying this learning(ACQUIRED MERIT) is a bad thing and those who possess it needs to penalized by denying them an opportunity for furthering their education .I am saying lets stop pretending that we are measuring inherit aptitude/talent(INBORN MERIT) in these entrance examinations .
Once we accept that what we are measuring in CAT or the other entrance exams is something that has been learnt with effort often since childhood we also see that others who have not had the good fortune of such a childhood could also learn those very things if only with harder work in teens or adulthood . And a person who has learnt skills late in his life can be as competent as anyone. So some one with a lesser score in an Entrance exam like a quota student could outdo over time someone who has scored more in the entrance .
. In a rediff discussion titled "Why students must know English " Rashmi Bansal of IIM Ahmedabad ,popular blogger , editor of an English youth magazine says ,
"All students must learn English because it is a vital skill in the New Economy"
But even the Americans don't think its going to enough in the "new economy" .
American President Bush thinks that learning Hindi and a few other foreign languages is a "critical need" for the US's national security and prosperity. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1362386.cms
In this article http://www.cmomagazine.com/analyst/031805_csa.html
That article quotes Former German chancellor Willy Brandt who said decades ago: "If I am selling to you, I speak your language. If I am buying, dann müssen Sie Deutsch sprechen" (or "Wenn ich zu Ihnen verkaufe, spreche ich Ihre Sprache. Wenn ich kaufe, then you must speak German"). People are much more likely to buy if they fully understand what it is you're trying to sell to them.
All successful business, like politics, is local - or should appear that way to the buyer. The right language is the first step in becoming a local hero says the same article
If knowledge of International language is the reason why CAT is held in English then there are other International languages which also have a claim to be in the question paper. See how knowing Chinese or Japanese or Italian or French or German would be to an Indian business man. Just look at the size of the world trade of the countries I have just named . And also see the growing importance of Asian countries .
Lets raise the standard of the Entrance exam . Let do away with the English paper and bring in a multilingual language paper. Lets introduce other important foreign languages in the CAT examination . To gain a competitive edge it will introduce the genial joys of learning a foreign language to the members of the anglicized cosmopolitan community. Lets say the first ten most widely spoken language in the world be included as options in the entrance examination .
Quite a few Indian languages will figure in the examination questions on the basis if the sheer number size of their speakers . ( Bengali follows Hindi in sheer numbers, its spoken in Bangladesh as well Bengal ) But lets consider all India state based languages equally . It will drastically cut down but not eliminate the importance of English . A person who knows more than one language will get rewarded.
If the answers are standardized then correction could also be easier .
It may also inspire our professors to learn newer international languages so that the immense research material in say Japanese management or French management becomes available to our budding management wizards . When our professors struggle with the Chinese script it will help them empathize with the struggle of a student who is struggling with English .
Lets further raise the standards of the entrance examination !!!Along with Maths lets also have a paper on Humanities . After all 90% of a managers success depends on handling people. So instead of promoting anglicized number crunching geeks who are blind to local and global social realities lets promote a more socially aware manager . Most corporates nowadays have larger social aims in their mission statements . They will love students who are conscious of social realities within and without the country .Let there be a compulsory section on "Community", "social capital". You can't understand concepts of "Caste", "social justice" etc .
It will bring down the ridiculous percentiles because the standards of the entrance would have gone up .
What I have suggested is complicated and I am sure can be improved upon . But where there is a will for merit and fair play there will be a way for merit and fair play .
Both can coexists . But then Innovation should not be just a management buzz word !!
# posted by : 5/02/2006 10:40 AM
: 5/02/2006 10:40 AM
Strictly speaking, no one is born a leader, just as no one is born a talented artist. But you can be born with the underlying traits that make you a potential artist given the right stimulus and environment. Similarly, investigative, rebellious characters could become criminals rather than leaders depending on circumstances, so it is the potential you are born with, not full scale leadership. And as you said these tests are the only way an institute can try to estimate the merit among the pool of students that is available every year. No one ever claimed that these tests have the potential to measure innate aptitude, and they never denied the fact that if someone is motivated enough then they can acquire the required passion for technical details and make the required effort to pass these exams.
As far as the exams like CAT are concerned and your optimism towards the quota student who, if given an opportunity, could out perform the people who have secured admission based on merit is surprising. Try to come at terms with the reality. There are very few school drop outs who became millionaire with shear hard work and determination. Similarly there are few people who graduate from these institutes and lose sight of their goals and never manage to achieve even a marginal success in their endeavors. But statistically speaking these are outliers. To a major extent the people who get through these stringent entrance exams based on merit are confident and often need a little refinement at these institutes to achieve success. Even a mine is located where the probability of finding the gems is more and not where the probability is scarce. Similarly these institutes are justified to use any procedure that they deem appropriate to yield the best results or help them find the right prospective student that they can refine to meet their expectations.
I have no clue about the various articles you quote me, but these don’t seem to relate to the quota issue. The quota issue is like giving away degrees based on reservations. It is my opinion that unless the foundation is strong enough the person may not be able to survive the onslaught at these institutes and end up losing self-confidence and feel insecure. Rather like the butterfly - story where it was shown that some struggle is necessary for survival, I strongly believe that quota system in the long run will hurt the Indian child more than anything else.
Now that you move your attention to language, let me remind you that English is spoken & understood by a majority of the population worldwide. We have seen people equip themselves with other language as and when needed. And hence as Indians who wish to trade with rest of the world we need to emphasize on English more than any other foreign language. Americans may feel the need to learn Hindi, Arabic & Chinese so that they can use these languages to their benefit and are actually alluding to its need for national security.
But at a technical institute the aim is to train you and equip you with everything except the language skill, which you need to upgrade at your own will and circumstances. My friends you went to Germany & France learnt German & French at their own will, and were not trained at these institutes in these foreign languages.
As far as the institutes are concerned they don’t test an individual in these foreign languages as it has other technical requirements to stress upon. Also they need more time to concentrate on other aspects of the curriculum and have only a limited time to set up these exams. So it is not worthwhile to compile and correct the entrance exams in different foreign and Indian languages. Further I deny accepting your opinion about providing the entrance exam in various languages as a means to raise the standard of the exam.
As far as your concern for humanities courses is concerned, let me assure you that it a part of the curriculum at the IITs & IIMs. I was appalled to learn this when they forced us to take up humanities courses at the engineering level and now in the hindsight I believe that it was nice decision taken by the IITs.
What you have suggested will not help in search for merit or fair play as you anticipate and seems like your effort to just say anything and everything you can against these institutes.
Hope this answers your questions.
-Hemal.
As far as the exams like CAT are concerned and your optimism towards the quota student who, if given an opportunity, could out perform the people who have secured admission based on merit is surprising. Try to come at terms with the reality. There are very few school drop outs who became millionaire with shear hard work and determination. Similarly there are few people who graduate from these institutes and lose sight of their goals and never manage to achieve even a marginal success in their endeavors. But statistically speaking these are outliers. To a major extent the people who get through these stringent entrance exams based on merit are confident and often need a little refinement at these institutes to achieve success. Even a mine is located where the probability of finding the gems is more and not where the probability is scarce. Similarly these institutes are justified to use any procedure that they deem appropriate to yield the best results or help them find the right prospective student that they can refine to meet their expectations.
I have no clue about the various articles you quote me, but these don’t seem to relate to the quota issue. The quota issue is like giving away degrees based on reservations. It is my opinion that unless the foundation is strong enough the person may not be able to survive the onslaught at these institutes and end up losing self-confidence and feel insecure. Rather like the butterfly - story where it was shown that some struggle is necessary for survival, I strongly believe that quota system in the long run will hurt the Indian child more than anything else.
Now that you move your attention to language, let me remind you that English is spoken & understood by a majority of the population worldwide. We have seen people equip themselves with other language as and when needed. And hence as Indians who wish to trade with rest of the world we need to emphasize on English more than any other foreign language. Americans may feel the need to learn Hindi, Arabic & Chinese so that they can use these languages to their benefit and are actually alluding to its need for national security.
But at a technical institute the aim is to train you and equip you with everything except the language skill, which you need to upgrade at your own will and circumstances. My friends you went to Germany & France learnt German & French at their own will, and were not trained at these institutes in these foreign languages.
As far as the institutes are concerned they don’t test an individual in these foreign languages as it has other technical requirements to stress upon. Also they need more time to concentrate on other aspects of the curriculum and have only a limited time to set up these exams. So it is not worthwhile to compile and correct the entrance exams in different foreign and Indian languages. Further I deny accepting your opinion about providing the entrance exam in various languages as a means to raise the standard of the exam.
As far as your concern for humanities courses is concerned, let me assure you that it a part of the curriculum at the IITs & IIMs. I was appalled to learn this when they forced us to take up humanities courses at the engineering level and now in the hindsight I believe that it was nice decision taken by the IITs.
What you have suggested will not help in search for merit or fair play as you anticipate and seems like your effort to just say anything and everything you can against these institutes.
Hope this answers your questions.
-Hemal.
You say
"Now that you move your attention to language, let me remind you that English is spoken & understood by a majority of the population worldwide."
You are wrong !!!
English is NOT the language spoken and understood by majority of the population worldwide!!!!!!!
The Summer Institute for Linguistics (SIL) Ethnologue Survey (1999) lists the following as the top languages by population:
(number of native speakers in parentheses)
Chinese* (937,132,000)
Spanish (332,000,000)
English (322,000,000)
Bengali (189,000,000)
Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000)
Arabic* (174,950,000)
Portuguese (170,000,000)
Russian (170,000,000)
Japanese (125,000,000)
German (98,000,000)
French* (79,572,000)
The following list is from Dr. Bernard Comrie’s article for the Encarta Encyclopedia (1998):
(number of native speakers in parentheses)
Mandarin Chinese (836 million)
Hindi (333 million)
Spanish (332 million)
English (322 million)
Bengali (189 million)
Arabic (186 million)
Russian (170 million)
Portuguese (170 million)
Japanese (125 million)
German (98 million)
French (72 million)
In the IAS examination there is no discrimination between candidates who answer in Hindi or English or other regional languages.
The IIMs can learn something from how the IAS is conducted.
"Now that you move your attention to language, let me remind you that English is spoken & understood by a majority of the population worldwide."
You are wrong !!!
English is NOT the language spoken and understood by majority of the population worldwide!!!!!!!
The Summer Institute for Linguistics (SIL) Ethnologue Survey (1999) lists the following as the top languages by population:
(number of native speakers in parentheses)
Chinese* (937,132,000)
Spanish (332,000,000)
English (322,000,000)
Bengali (189,000,000)
Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000)
Arabic* (174,950,000)
Portuguese (170,000,000)
Russian (170,000,000)
Japanese (125,000,000)
German (98,000,000)
French* (79,572,000)
The following list is from Dr. Bernard Comrie’s article for the Encarta Encyclopedia (1998):
(number of native speakers in parentheses)
Mandarin Chinese (836 million)
Hindi (333 million)
Spanish (332 million)
English (322 million)
Bengali (189 million)
Arabic (186 million)
Russian (170 million)
Portuguese (170 million)
Japanese (125 million)
German (98 million)
French (72 million)
In the IAS examination there is no discrimination between candidates who answer in Hindi or English or other regional languages.
The IIMs can learn something from how the IAS is conducted.
# posted by : 5/02/2006 7:23 PM
: 5/02/2006 7:23 PM
I anticipated you to pick that one. Good.
IAS prepares people to work in the local community and hence Hindi & English are requisite, while IIMs train people to work in the corporate world where English is widely accepted in India & outside.
IAS prepares people to work in the local community and hence Hindi & English are requisite, while IIMs train people to work in the corporate world where English is widely accepted in India & outside.
We always had a sufficient quota for the minority representatives in all the government sector related activities. In all the examples that you quoted in your previous response kindly be prudent enough to look at the ratio of the allocated quota in universities or public services. Just like you mentioned in the Germany example, we are and have always been willing to give preference to an underrepresented category when they prove to have equal qualification. We wouldn’t mind if all the students at some point belong to these underrepresented categories as long as they have entered on the basis of merit.
Just like you mentioned the plight of the farmers and tribes, let me remind you that more than half the urban population is employed in the blue collar job at these so-called industries. They have always been undermined in this reservation issue. Just because they belong to the other castes and work in towns and cities doesn’t mean that they have enough money to fulfill all their needs. I have personally seen some families that barely manage to serve their kids two square meals a day and somehow manage to send them to school and motivate them so that they have the opportunity to rise up the hierarchy and hopefully manage to have a fairly better lifestyle. Further even they don’t have access to any of your so-called management quotas (in IIMs??), governing body quotas (in IIMs??), NRI quotas and cannot afford paid seats within India or abroad. They still compete to the best of their abilities and manage to secure a seat in these premier institutes and that is precisely what makes the graduates of these institutes confident, achieve success based on their hard work and perseverance and teach them not to rely on any external support.
You still need to read the butterfly - story that I mentioned in my previous comment. I am almost sure that you prefer to copy-paste discussion from somewhere and do not even care to read and respond to my comments.
Further about your doctor example, trust me, I shall prefer to go to a doctor based on his true medical abilities rather than his knowledge of English language or his Caste or Religion.
I have read a whole lot about the affirmative action and know the actual realities. But I am afraid that you never realized what actually goes on in America when you keep talking about the affirmative actions. I have personally seen how ineffective they are and yet they look so good in philosophy. Further they are not very well implemented, and you may feel free to read about the people’s predicament to the government’s response after Katrina. I have even seen how the American Universities select their student and how high their fees are. You are better off if you can concentrate on the effectiveness of the current 50% reservation issue in the Indian scenario rather that go for what appears to be a good political statement but never implemented even in these so-called developed nations.
Further when you say that Premji and Tata shall transfer the company authority as a legacy to their family member could you please ponder on one question – If you feel that your neighbor deserves a better house than you because he has been living in poor conditions for a long time, and if you and your family has suffered a lot to save each rupee miserly, to buy a nice little house, would you just give away your house to your neighbor or let your kid inherit it?
To repeat what past American President Lyndon Johnson said "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line in a race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others', and still justly believe that you have been completely fair."
And yet you are trying to persuade the government to do exactly what Lyndon Johnson mentioned as unfair. I am not sure if you realize that by providing quota or reservation at the highest level of education you are precisely bringing them to the start of line and also have the audacity to claim that they shall compete well in the final race in the corporate world. If they need to survive in the corporate world they need to start from the basic. Ask your leaders to provide good resources for primary education in each zilla & taluk and motivate the farmers & others in the lower socio-economic strata and prepare them for a better career. You definitely do not expect that a couple of years of training or refinement at these institutes to prepare them for the final battle.
Post a Comment
Just like you mentioned the plight of the farmers and tribes, let me remind you that more than half the urban population is employed in the blue collar job at these so-called industries. They have always been undermined in this reservation issue. Just because they belong to the other castes and work in towns and cities doesn’t mean that they have enough money to fulfill all their needs. I have personally seen some families that barely manage to serve their kids two square meals a day and somehow manage to send them to school and motivate them so that they have the opportunity to rise up the hierarchy and hopefully manage to have a fairly better lifestyle. Further even they don’t have access to any of your so-called management quotas (in IIMs??), governing body quotas (in IIMs??), NRI quotas and cannot afford paid seats within India or abroad. They still compete to the best of their abilities and manage to secure a seat in these premier institutes and that is precisely what makes the graduates of these institutes confident, achieve success based on their hard work and perseverance and teach them not to rely on any external support.
You still need to read the butterfly - story that I mentioned in my previous comment. I am almost sure that you prefer to copy-paste discussion from somewhere and do not even care to read and respond to my comments.
Further about your doctor example, trust me, I shall prefer to go to a doctor based on his true medical abilities rather than his knowledge of English language or his Caste or Religion.
I have read a whole lot about the affirmative action and know the actual realities. But I am afraid that you never realized what actually goes on in America when you keep talking about the affirmative actions. I have personally seen how ineffective they are and yet they look so good in philosophy. Further they are not very well implemented, and you may feel free to read about the people’s predicament to the government’s response after Katrina. I have even seen how the American Universities select their student and how high their fees are. You are better off if you can concentrate on the effectiveness of the current 50% reservation issue in the Indian scenario rather that go for what appears to be a good political statement but never implemented even in these so-called developed nations.
Further when you say that Premji and Tata shall transfer the company authority as a legacy to their family member could you please ponder on one question – If you feel that your neighbor deserves a better house than you because he has been living in poor conditions for a long time, and if you and your family has suffered a lot to save each rupee miserly, to buy a nice little house, would you just give away your house to your neighbor or let your kid inherit it?
To repeat what past American President Lyndon Johnson said "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line in a race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others', and still justly believe that you have been completely fair."
And yet you are trying to persuade the government to do exactly what Lyndon Johnson mentioned as unfair. I am not sure if you realize that by providing quota or reservation at the highest level of education you are precisely bringing them to the start of line and also have the audacity to claim that they shall compete well in the final race in the corporate world. If they need to survive in the corporate world they need to start from the basic. Ask your leaders to provide good resources for primary education in each zilla & taluk and motivate the farmers & others in the lower socio-economic strata and prepare them for a better career. You definitely do not expect that a couple of years of training or refinement at these institutes to prepare them for the final battle.
<< Home
